00:00:00A.B.: I'm Amy Brainer. I'm an associate professor of Women's and Gender Studies, and I direct LGBTQ Studies at the University of Michigan-Dearborn.
00:00:10K.A.: I'm Katie Anderson-Levitt or Kathryn Anderson-Levitt. I am a cultural anthropologist, especially an anthropologist of education, and was involved with Women's Studies for a good part of my career at UM-Dearborn.
00:00:31A.B.: I'm thinking you served as director of Women's Studies up to 1995. Does that sound right to you?
00:00:39K.A.: Yes. I'm afraid I haven't saved any of my notes. I had to look back at my CV. It looks like I was director for just one year from '94 to '95.
00:00:49A.B.: Oh, '94 to '95.
00:00:51K.A.: We were taking turns, as I recall. I was also involved in the Agenda for Women later with Sheryl Pearson and other colleagues. [See the index for a UM-Dearborn Reporter article about the Agenda for Women that Katie worked on.]
00:01:00A.B.: Yes. I would like to hear about all of that. I'm going to be asking questions about when you were director, but please don't feel confined to that year. Tell me just about your memories of Women's Studies broadly. Do you remember how you became the director? Was it a position you were asked to do, that you volunteered to do?
00:01:26K.A.: I do not remember exactly, and I don't have any notes on what the sequence of directors was. All I recall is that there was a group of faculty interested in Women's Studies, which later was renamed Women’s and Gender Studies. I had previously taught - I think previously taught Intro to Women's Studies once or twice, but I don't even remember exactly how that happened. At that time, we were co-teaching the intro. I co-taught with Cathy Clark from French Studies and the Humanities. I later co-taught with Rashmi Luthra from Communications. Before that, the very first year I arrived at UM-Dearborn, which was '84, '85, for some reason I got tapped to give a couple of talks at the Social Security Administration or something, some kind of adult education. I think it was Jim Gruber who organized this. I gave talks on women and work and this notion that women were just going back into the workforce and how false that was in the history of - both from an anthropological perspective, but even in terms of US history. Maybe that helped people realize I had that background. I had taken a course on gender in my anthropology graduate work from Michelle Rosaldo, so I had that little bit of academic background. And I had inherited a course that had been developed by a prior faculty member in Anthropology called Culture and Sexuality.
00:03:23A.B.: That class still exists.
00:03:27K.A.: It was a great title. They let me spend about half the time on gender, broadly, and half the time on sex and reproduction and family and that sort of thing. I guess that was also why I was almost automatically connected to other people interested in gender in the college.
00:03:47A.B.: You were in Anthropology. Was that program supportive of you being involved in Women's Studies?
00:03:53K.A.: Sure. It was just three of us at that time. It was Dan Moerman and Barry Bogin and myself, so a very small group of anthropologists within the Department of Behavioral Sciences where there were a number of sociologists including Lora Lempert, whom I think was hired a little bit after me. Then masses of psychologists, which is probably still the way it breaks down today.
00:04:22A.B.: Yes. [Laughter]
00:04:25K.A.: But, yes. The anthropologists felt that since I was trained as an anthropologist, whatever I was doing must be anthropology. Because I had come in having done fieldwork in schools in France with schoolteachers. Then having done research in work activity centers, that is, shelter workshops for mentally retarded adults in Los Angeles. So not the most typical or classic anthropological background, but it was sort of like, "Whatever you do, we see that you frame it as an anthropologist, so that's fine." They themselves, Barry and Dan, were not interested specifically in gender at all. But it was fine with them as a piece of the program.
00:05:15A.B.: Do you remember how you found those colleagues who were also interested in gender, or they found you?
00:05:24K.A.: I don't remember. I don't remember how I came to teach Intro to Women's Studies the first time. It's just too long ago. It's like what? Almost 50 years ago. [Laughter]
00:05:41A.B.: You all are quite amazing to me 'cause I don't know - I think if you asked me 10 years ago, I would be struggling, or two years ago maybe.
00:05:50K.A.: Well, I'm an ethnographer, so I went to look for my notes, but I didn't save my notes. In San Francisco, I keep moving into smaller and smaller places.
00:06:00A.B.: Right. We don't carry these archives with us. Well, we'll preserve some of it with this project, hopefully.
00:06:13A.B.: Do you remember what kinds of expectations or goals you had going into the work of directing Women's Studies?
00:06:25K.A.: Not specifically. We wanted to make sure that we could regularly offer the course, the intro course. I don't remember at that time whether we were - I guess we were trying to cross list other relevant courses, like the Culture and Sexuality course, for example. But I don't remember what specific struggles or goals we might have had. [See the index for a partial set of Katie's notes outlining goals and concerns for the program.] Always, there's the question of, do you have adequate enrollment to justify such and such a course? That's just generally on every chair and director's mind. How can we promote? How can we make it visible? How can we make the courses attractive to students and worthwhile? I don't remember specifically, no.
00:07:22A.B.: Do you remember how you made the courses attractive and worthwhile to students or visible?
00:07:29K.A.: No. I mean I'm pretty sure we developed flyers. This is back in the days before the Internet had arrived, so it was a very different situation. And encouraged people to mention courses in the courses they were currently teaching. We knew that the title I had inherited of Culture and Sexuality was very helpful in that particular case. That's all that I can remember offhand.
00:08:01A.B.: Do you remember if the amount of time you spent on other things changed while you were director, like your research, for example?
00:08:15K.A.: Whenever you ask somebody to take on that kind of job, they are adding a time commitment. Basically service, in general, eats up a lot more time than people can usually account for in faculty jobs. Not to mention that teaching preparation eats up tons of time, so that most people felt they couldn't get too much work done on their research and publishing side except during the summers. That's just typical of life in academia as far as I can figure out. So sure, it was making an additional commitment. On the other hand, it was good to have a community of scholars to connect with, so there's that positive side. Even though the positives are difficult to point to, but just to have those colleagues across the entire college, and for that matter, in the School of Education as well, was a good thing and psychologically supportive, I think.
00:09:30A.B.: So that's kind of - Another question I have is about the support you got or didn't get. Where did you get support from? And this could be material support. It could be emotional, psychological support, like you just mentioned.
00:09:50K.A.: Again, I just don't have very specific memories. At that point in time, I was too far removed from - didn't have any connections, really, with the dean's office or that sort of thing. I'm not sure we even thought about things at that level very much. It's an interdisciplinary program, so it did not have to do with my department chair, in particular, except insofar as I needed to get permission to teach an interdisciplinary course.
00:10:26A.B.: Was that hard to do?
00:10:29K.A.: I don't think it was hard to do in the early years, when we were less anguished, maybe, about the budget. What happened at UM-Dearborn, as at all kinds of state institutions over the decades, is that the percentage of support coming from the state was reduced every year. So we came to be more and more anxious about budget because the only other way to support the work that was going on was by raising student tuition, which, of course, violated the whole notion of a state and public institution. I think in the earlier years, there was better state support, so money was less on our minds than it got to be by the time I became the dean.
00:11:19A.B.: That's important context. Do you remember some things that were going on socially, culturally, or politically that shaped the program during the time of your directorship or when you were very involved with Women's Studies? Things that maybe the program was responding to that were happening in the broader culture.
00:11:44K.A.: No, I have to admit that all the decades kind of blend together. [Laughter]
00:11:52A.B.: Fair.
00:11:53K.A.: I remember that when I was an undergraduate, gender issues were not too much on my mind, but I was involved in organizing an anti - oh what's the word. We wanted - we didn't like the regents' policy on women living in the women's dorms where they had to be home by such and such an hour.
00:12:24A.B.: Yes.
00:12:25K.A.: So we organized against that. In that era, other students came to me and said, "Can we link this protest you're having?" We had sort of a sleep-in for a night. "Could we link it to a protest against the bombing in Cambodia?" We were stupid enough to say no because, of course, our issue was so much more frivolous than that kind of heavy duty. That was on people's minds back when I was an undergraduate. The context in the later decades, I cannot remember.
00:13:05A.B.: You talked about community, and that seems to be a big theme, especially, I'm noticing, in the early years of this program. For those of us who are hearing that, and we're thinking, okay, community is important, foster community. What is some advice you can give us for how to do that?
00:13:31K.A.: Well, we had to be able to get together physically, which was a little bit tough for people who were pressed to work on their research and generally teaching three courses a semester. A lot of faculty were also commuting from Ann Arbor. I was not. I lived close by. But there was that commute time as well to deal with, so that was tough. Just being able to say, let's meet at lunch, or let's have a brown bag or do something like that. If we're gonna have a series of talks, let's do it when we can squeeze it in at lunchtime as a brown bag or whatever. Anything along those lines is helpful. Nowadays, having connection through the Internet one way or another, whether it's an email list or something more complicated, I think helps people accomplish that in a way that was difficult for us. In the old days, in the early days, if you wanted to get together with people, you wrote a memo, duplicated it, and put it in campus mail. [Laughter] Then waited to see if there was any response.
00:14:55A.B.: Honestly, in a way, maybe those were better at reaching people than now, when we're just inundated with emails.
00:15:02K.A.: Well, maybe. But we used to be inundated with pieces of paper.
00:15:10A.B.: [Laughter] It was the same problem, just in a different format.
00:15:16A.B.: Was there support you felt like you needed but didn't get as you were trying to plant this program and nourish it?
00:15:28K.A.: Oh, I mean, maybe, probably we felt that. It would have been good to have maybe more official nods or recognition or more easily have a budget. If I remember right, the interdisciplinary programs really didn't have any budgets at all, except that you can say being given the right to offer a course and have that count as part of your course load was a kind of implicit financial backing. Again, I just don't remember. If you ask other folks, maybe I was less politically savvy and sensitive to that kind of stuff than some people were.
00:16:16A.B.: Were there things you learned about the university or the college as a result of your work as director of Women's Studies?
00:16:30K.A.: Probably, but I don't remember what too much. Just getting to know well some faculty members, who happened in almost every case to be women, in all those different departments and in the school of ed was great as a way to get to understand the bigger campus. UM-Dearborn was already unusual in having those large interdisciplinary departments. That was already good. I had the opportunity to get to know some psychologists and lots of sociologists that way. This was better yet, to have colleagues in chemistry, for instance. Judi Heady and Marilee Parsons [now Benore] was not what typically would have happened to an anthropologist on most campuses, I think.
00:17:33A.B.: Was there anything you learned about yourself as a result of doing this work?
00:17:40K.A.: Oh, I don't think so. I guess I knew already I was able to get things organized when I needed to. You know, to organize meetings, to think about what needs to happen next, but. I think it was not - I was not operating as any kind of big activist. I think it was much later. After I had been the director, I was involved in - I'm not even sure how we came to do this. I think it might have been when we had the Agenda for Women. I was involved in looking at the situation of adjunct faculty on campus and learning why their salaries or their pay was so low. Basically the answer was, when the campus first started, they were paid at an assistant professor level, and that was never changed. As tenure-track faculty members' salaries went up, their pay just remained the same, so that they were making poverty wages, same as across the country, right? We looked into that partly 'cause we thought it was a gender issue. Although, to be honest, when we collected data, it wasn't clear that it - there were just as many men as women in that situation. Thinking about those sorts of things. I mean, I didn't - maybe that stimulated me to be a little more - maybe the experience in Women's Studies stimulated me to be a little more attentive or slightly more activist regarding situations like that.
00:19:39K.A.: The only other thing I can remember - oh, I can't even remember exactly what the issue was now. When we had a new dean come in, Dean Pressley, which was much later, he said something or did something when he first came in that I thought was unnecessarily scary for brand new assistant professors. I can't remember what it was. It was something about getting tenure. I sent him an email or something [laughter], so he called me in. We had a very friendly conversation. He was laughing a lot. He was apparently a little taken aback to hear from somebody saying, "You know..." I was just trying to explain to him, "I'm just telling you, I'm not complaining for myself. I'm just saying you're making people worry more than they should about the tenure requirements," or something like that. Maybe I wouldn't have done that if I hadn't had all that experience from prior years, knowing people across the college, and just being comfortable there by that point.
00:20:45A.B.: Right. The personal connections as well as attention to those types of issues were important. Were you able to change the situation for the lecturers at that time?
00:20:58K.A.: No, I don't think so. What actually happened was a few years later, the part-time faculty, led by a couple of my colleagues in anthropology, organized a union. In order to do that - that had been attempted previously at UM-Flint. They had learned from an NLRB [National Labor Relations Board] decision or something that they couldn't organize just at Flint. It had to be the three campuses. My colleagues succeeded in getting the Ann Arbor folks on board. That had nothing to do with me. I ended up on the opposite side. I was in administration by the time the union was actually in place. So I was in very large meetings in Ann Arbor about, "How are we gonna respond to this?" My attitude was like, "Well" [laughter].
00:21:50A.B.: Yeah. Tell me about that. What was that like for you?
00:21:55K.A.: Well, basically, I sympathized. I thought, well, no wonder they organized a union. Are you kidding? After all those years, I just -
00:22:00A.B.: Yes, absolutely.
00:22:04K.A.: I didn't have much specifically to say, but just, it was kind of amusing, actually. I certainly didn't have anything - actually, the Ann Arbor people were reasonably mellow about it too, the administrators. But they had budgets on their minds above all, and they're kind of far removed from the teaching situation, some of them.
00:22:29A.B.: So this is an interesting question that I think quite a few of our Women’s Studies faculty have ended up going into leadership or administrative positions. Did you ever feel a tension about that with your ethics from Women's Studies and then the roles that you took on?
00:22:55K.A.: Well, yeah, administration is difficult ethically. Are you really being fair to everybody? Are you treating everybody the same? How should you treat these full-time and part-time lecturers, for example? When you're making a job offer, there's a tension between wanting to get this person and help the discipline get this person, so there's a push for more money. But also, how is that fair for everybody else who's not making as much? Budget was the big, big issue when I came in as dean. It took me a couple of years to even get a handle on it 'cause our budget system, when I came in, was not aligned - was not using the numbers that the central campus was generating. Only when I got a new budget manager, who was the equivalent of a CPA [Certified Public Accountant] and knew how to organize all that and work with our budget department, could we get it straightened out. There was a lot of pressure to be more efficient, to have fuller classes and all that sort of thing.
00:24:16A.B.: Did you feel like you had to give up some of your community to be a dean?
00:24:27K.A.: Well, yeah. Certainly, I think my Women's Studies colleagues would say that. I went to a workshop when I was just moving into administration and was warned about, be careful not to show favoritism. I thought that was legit. That actually made sense to me. But my colleagues, like Lora [Lempert], for example, were very upset that I wasn't - they weren't in the inner circle with me anymore. It was very tricky to navigate. I didn't find good ways to explain to people what was going on inside the dean's office and why I was making decisions that I made. It mostly didn't have anything to do with Women's Studies, per se, but just faculty situations.
00:25:35K.A.: Very quickly, in the council with deans, with the chancellor, somehow this issue came up. It was a perennial issue, which was summer pay. I knew for a long time that - I had figured out that the way the summer salaries were organized was not equitable. It was good for the people who were able to do a lot of teaching in the summer, the way it used to be arranged. But it turned out - as I could see, once I got into the dean's office - that was specifically for certain faculty in Behavioral Sciences and Social Sciences, and maybe in the Natural Sciences, that were able to get the summer classes and to earn those good salaries based on a really beneficial package. Meanwhile, the Humanities folks couldn't get many classes on account of the enrollments. It was very uneven. There was a lot of - in hiring new faculty, the senior faculty would say, "Well, we know the salaries are not that high, but don't worry. You can make a lot of money in the summer." And I'm thinking yes, but you guys are - you don't realize it, but you're raising the requirements for tenure.
00:27:04A.B.: That's right.
00:27:06K.A.: Those new faculty need to have the summer free for their research and for their writing. It's not really right to be promoting this heavy teaching load during the summer. There are a few people who are able to do fabulous research and do all that teaching too, but that's not usually the young, brand new faculty in their new roles with their young families and all that. Anyway, a decision had to be made immediately with the deans: are we gonna make this change in the summer package? And I agreed to it. The faculty were very upset. Luckily, coming out of the faculty protests, the chancellor had to agree to give a kind of a recompense money that would go into people's base salaries, which, of course, is much better. It turned out to be the equivalent amount of money, at least, over a certain period of time. As a long-run solution, it was much better. But it was very difficult for people too, because it hit family budgets, or at least couple budgets, hard in a few cases.
00:28:25A.B.: Absolutely.
00:28:32K.A.: Yeah. I never found a way to really explain that, I think, to faculty. It would have been very difficult, in fact, to say, "Um, you guys," like in my department, for example. There's a few people who've been full professors for a long, long time, but have - not everybody had been - some were fabulous researchers and publishers. Some were not. But they're holding the new faculty to a different standard and not really thinking through what's the best situation for them.
00:29:15A.B.: Who were sort of your mentors, or the people around you when you were in this stage of your career, that you could reach for? [See the index for a University Record announcement about Katie becoming dean of CASL.]
00:29:37K.A.: I was just thinking about, there were a lot of - I'm not sure who I spent the most time talking with, but people like Lora Lempert. Pat Smith in Economics. Maureen Linker when she came on board. Suzanne Bergeron, who had really such great savvy, though she was younger than me. Rashmi [Luthra], whom I had taught with, who had good insights. Eventually, Nancy Wrobel in Psychology who had become my department chair by later in my career. Gabriella even, Gabriella Scarlatta. Judi Heady, I mentioned. Jane Romatowski and Mary Trepanier-Street I had interactions with, particularly, because my research was in education. A lot of different folks. No one particular person in my case, I think. Sheryl Pearson, Sheryl and I worked on an Agenda for Women. I don't even remember how that got started, but I looked at my CV to see, that was the same time as I was doing the Women's Studies thing, directing it. Just a lot of good role models, right?
00:31:17A.B.: Yes. I asked you what you learned about the university, about yourself. Do you feel like you learned also something about the field of women's studies through directing or through your involvement with it?
00:31:43K.A.: Well, yes, especially by co-teaching with Cathy Collins and then with Rashmi [Luthra] because they had such different perspectives than I did. Okay, so Rashmi had this whole background in highly theoretical thinking about gender studies, and maybe some angles, post-colonial and whatever. Cathy Collins was sort of the opposite of me in her perspective because she was kind of like an essentialist, like gender is - women are basically different from men. There's a feminine thing and a masculine thing. I'm like, whoa. I'm totally social constructivist, you know. All the in between areas and all that kind of stuff.
00:32:36K.A.: I used to teach - when I taught Culture and Sexuality, I used to try to teach the students how many biological steps it takes to make a biological male or female, and how that doesn't always happen exactly as you think it's supposed to, and then not to mention all the intersex possibilities in different societies around the world. This is totally the opposite [of Cathy's approach]. [Laughter] So yes. I was learning the many different philosophical trends within Women's Studies, just from my colleagues. Of course, eventually, we did change the label to Women's and Gender Studies, as we gradually were recognizing this was a much - Then there was all of Jim Gruber's research on masculinity too, and the difficulties and the hard part about being a man and being held to these standards. Yes, so it was very - it was just plain educational, just from my colleagues, so not so much - I'm sure, the textbooks or the readings we did as well, but especially just from so many different perspectives right within UM-Dearborn.
00:33:51A.B.: The interdisciplinarity seems to be a central part of what made UM-Dearborn Women’s and Gender Studies special.
00:34:02A.B.: What do you remember about the students? What types of students were drawn to the program or in the program?
00:34:14K.A.: It's a little hard for me to sort out the Women's Studies students from the Anthropology students, because sometimes this was in Anthropology. Just because we taught - even in Intro [to Anthropology], we would teach a little bit about gender and the fluidity of gender, and the incredibly wide range of reactions from culture to culture to gender, and whether it should be sharply divided or whether it's more fluid and all that. Just teaching about that, it seemed like you always got to know students who were questioning their sexual identity or questioning their gender identity. That always came up, so that was a big education for me. Including some of the Anthro majors, who then would overlap with the Women's and Gender Studies majors. Just in general, both in gender studies and in anthropology, so many issues that you could teach about, that you could bring up, were eye-opening for students who had not had that kind of life experience before.
00:35:41K.A.: Then, of course, students at UM-Dearborn, I presume this is still true, we had a very wide age range. My oldest student was 80. Then you have the 18- and 19-year-olds, and a lot of folks who were more in their 20s and finishing up their education a little more slowly. Or the guy from Ford Tool and Die, who was finishing his degree at the same time that his daughter was doing her degree, that kind of thing. That was also good. The older folks could bring perspectives on gender issues, and what marriage is actually like, that the younger students might not have.
00:36:32A.B.: I feel that to be true too.
00:36:37A.B.: What memories of Women's and Gender Studies do you cherish?
00:36:46K.A.: Just being able to work with that group of great people, to plan courses, to plan the new semester or the year or whatever, to discover what people's research is, to be supportive. Then there's a very particular memory. Once I got in the dean's office, maybe when I was associate dean or maybe it was dean, I was - an administrative thing. Suzanne Bergeron was going to come up for tenure, and she had a joint appointment. I had a suspicion that joint appointments were not an easy thing to get tenure with because it was like coming up for tenure twice. We negotiated with the departments a special tenure process where it was only going to be one decision. It was weighted between the two sets of faculty. Just those kind of nitty-gritty things mattered too. [See the index for the joint appointment promotion and tenure policy that Katie helped develop for the college.] I don't know how Suzanne actually experienced it, but she did get tenure, so that's important.
00:38:06A.B.: That's the important thing. You gave us Suzanne! Thank you for that.
00:38:15A.B.: What advice would you give to a director of Women’s and Gender Studies today?
00:38:26K.A.: Well, today - [Laughter] In the recently rearranged context in which we are working, it is, once again, or anew, such a political role, which it was not so much when I was involved. Here you are trying to think about the academic side and to focus on understanding what is gender, what are women's and men's and other roles around the world, and all that sort of thing. But now you have to worry about how people in your own society are reacting, are taking umbrage, are worried.
00:39:16K.A.: I just was in a Zoom call yesterday with a young colleague. This was very helpful to think about this. This colleague, who teaches anthropology at American University, and whose research - well, part of her research was on Sesame Street in Nigeria, so that's one of her anthropology sides. Now she is doing fieldwork in Maryland in a school, where the school has been trying to teach a very open and supportive curriculum on gender issues, and now is getting a backlash from immigrants. Her attitude towards that, as an anthropologist, was to try to understand both sides. To try to understand what's the perspective of these immigrant parents who were so upset about notions regarding homosexuality and so on, to understand where that came from, not to condemn right away, but to understand. That's the attitude we need to have as we're seeing all this anxiety, book banning and all this. On the one hand, you don't want that to happen. You don't want to lose democracy and the support of diversity that we've had in the United States. But on the other hand, you have to - you can't just react by condemning. You have to step back and understand. That may or may not resolve the problem, but you've got to take that step, at least.
00:41:01A.B.: Right. I think that what you brought up is very relevant. It's very relevant to us here in Dearborn as well. There's a dearth of people doing the work of understanding.
00:41:20K.A.: Within anthropology of education, a lot of my colleagues work with immigrant populations and see the many ways that they've been closed out of a lot of opportunities. To have that background and then to say, "Ah, okay, here's a point where I really differ from you a lot," but it's - understanding has to be the first step. I can't just jump in and try to explain to you how I think you are wrong, right off the bat. That's not going to get us anywhere, right off the bat.
00:41:58A.B.: And it can also be very quickly mobilized into a kind of racism and xenophobia.
00:42:09A.B.: I'm going to start wrapping up the formal questions, but I want you to feel free to add anything to this. I'm going to ask you a very broad question to close. That is, how do you see Women's Studies fitting into the larger picture of your career and life?
00:42:40K.A.: I was very lucky to have had the opportunity to study gender from an anthropology perspective when I was in grad school. It was never part of my research program. At least, I didn't think. Therefore, from a faculty perspective - well, I should say, but it was an important part of my teaching program, not only in Women's Studies classes but, as I said, in Intro [to Anthropology], and in having that wonderful opportunity to teach Culture and Sexuality. To say that it was not part of my research program means from a certain point of view of an academic, it wasn't quite so core to me.
00:43:25K.A.: But a funny thing happened recently. I got invited to write one of these state-of-the-art review articles for a handbook on teachers and teachers' work. They said, "Well, write about - you have studied teachers in three countries, in France, in West Africa, and in the United States, and so work with that. What did you learn?" In writing it, what I - in reviewing all of that and looking at relevant literature, under the heading of teachers' work, I thought, oh, what I learned in Guinea was that teachers don't make enough money and have to have side jobs, even if it means selling shoes or selling butter or going and tutoring after school. This is particularly of concern for the female teachers. Although, they are the minority in Guinea. Then I realized, well, what I - then to look back at the people I worked with in France and these student teachers in the United States who were predominately women. I realized, oh, I have been studying, to a good extent, women's lives all along because teaching is relatively gender segregated and underpaid in the United States as compared with a lot of countries and so on. Guess what, I was really looking at some gender issues all along and hadn't thought about it. Having that background and having that opportunity to learn from so many colleagues about it all those years was a good thing to have had, to give me that perspective.
00:45:31A.B.: Is there anything that you want to add, something I didn't ask you about, or a thought you had while we were talking?
00:45:40K.A.: I don't think so, but I do want to say thank you for doing this project. It is so great to put together this history. I'm so glad you seized this opportunity that U of M made available to do these interviews and collect this information.
00:46:02A.B.: Thank you so much for your time and your wisdom. I'll go ahead and stop recording. We can say goodbye.
