00:00:00A.B.: I'm Amy Brainer. I'm an associate professor of Women's and Gender Studies and coordinator of LGBTQ Studies at the University of Michigan-Dearborn.
00:00:08A.M.: I am Ania Müller. I am a professor of history at the University of Michigan-Dearborn.
00:00:14A.B.: You were director of WILL [Women in Learning and Leadership], now WILL+, from 2020 to 2023. Does that sound right?
00:00:22A.M.: Yes, 2020 to 2023. Wow, 2020. Yes.
00:00:26A.B.: Tell me what you remember about how you became the director of WILL.
00:00:30A.M.: What I remember is that I received an email. I was in Poland at the time. I was on sabbatical. COVID started, and I was supposed to come back to the States. Actually, I didn't want to come back to the States, partially because my grandmother was really sick. Because of COVID, there were not many people we could ask to help to take care of her. I stayed with my parents, with my dad. My mom was in the States taking care of my kids. I would walk from my father's house to my grandma for an hour or two. I think I was in my grandma's apartment when Lisa called me, and we talked about this - Lisa Martin - and she suggested that I take over WILL. I was very happy about this because I think I was almost done with my sabbatical, and I was ready to - I was thinking about ways I can become more active with students on campus because I really wanted to be involved with some student orgs, and History is very small, and the students are not very active. I was looking for ways of engagement with the students. This question came at a very good moment for me. Also, at that point, the WILL director was receiving a course release for three years, so it was three course releases, which I don't think I've ever used.
00:02:09A.B.: [Laughter] What?
00:02:11A.M.: That's not a good thing not to use -
00:02:14A.B.: No, it's understandable, though. That gets to the complicated nature of this. Because not using it was probably because you were needed to teach things in your own program.
00:02:25A.M.: Exactly. And then, now they are gone, and nobody cares.
00:02:29A.B.: That's right.
00:02:30A.M.: But this was still a very nice position to be in because of the course releases and because WILL seemed to be very strongly embedded on our campus, so it was great. Yes.
00:02:47A.B.: Tell me about yourself. What did you specifically bring to the role of director? It could be academic background, personal background.
00:02:56A.M.: I think when Suzanne [Bergeron] emailed me, with Lisa, I think they were hoping that I would - because I was involved with the study abroad center on campus. I think they were hoping that I would organize some kind of study abroad for WILL students or some kind of internship. We were even talking about taking students to Brussels to get acquainted with some women's organizations that work with the European Union. I think it was that. My international background. What else? I think that was mainly it. That was the expectation. I think I came to WILL with this ambition of actually trying to organize something more international. Those are the first conversations I think I had with WILL students. Then I realized very fast that, first of all, we're in the middle of COVID. Nobody knows how long this is going to last. Second, international travel was becoming more and more difficult. Then, of course, the worry was who can actually afford it? It just seems like this ability to travel abroad is another form of privilege. I wasn't sure whether WILL was in a good place to bring it for consideration at that point.
00:04:17A.B.: Right. For it to work for WILL, the university would really have to cover everything.
00:04:21A.M.: Yeah. It looked like there's less and less resources on our campus to actually help us with this, and it seemed like it was becoming more difficult.
00:04:32A.B.: Right. Especially during COVID. Not only the travel complications, but also it was sort of a belt-tightening time. We were losing resources quickly. There are two questions that follow, and I feel that you have actually begun to address them. I'm going to ask them together, and then you can add anything you think you want to add. The questions are, what expectations and goals did you have going into this role, and how did your expectations and goals change, if at all, as you did the work?
00:05:04A.M.: I had big ideas. I wanted us to grow. I was thinking almost immediately that maybe we should try to change the name of WILL. I was thinking that we will become more inclusive. I wasn't sure whether the recruitment strategy was still working at that point. The faculty were nominating the students, and then students were accepting or not accepting the interviews. I think after the first - My first year was, essentially, this experiment in how much we can do on Zoom, how much we can stay connected over Zoom and do the things we did in the past. So I think my ambitions - I mean, some of them materialized. Some of the conversations we started, I think, continued for WILL. Some things got changed. I don't know if [for the] better. We sort of started this conversation about how WILL should be changing in those changing times.
00:06:10A.M.: But really, the first year was pretty much an attempt to do whatever we can in the middle of Zoom, and not knowing how much longer it's going to last, so it was important to maintain some kind of connection. We would meet, I think, every other week on Zoom. I think it was Sundays or Saturdays. And I remember those moments really fondly because we were creating bonds, I think. We had some new members, and we would meet and have a little bit of icebreaker and talk about what's new, what's happening, and then try to plan things. This was a time when the Zoom president - [Laughter] - WILL president was Hania Khan, and she was amazing. She was very sensitive and very smart and very involved. She had plenty of ideas of how to keep people engaged. I think after this first year and a half, I think my ambitions had changed tremendously. I just had to realize that a lot of things we won't be able to do, partially because of COVID and partially because I really didn't feel like there is much support on campus for the things we wanted to do. There were no resources.
00:07:36A.M.: Actually, WILL, I think, was in this very happy situation where it actually had its own budget and it had a little bit of resources. We still were able to do things we wanted. But it just felt like the situation on campus was becoming such that everything was changing. We were not even sure whether WILL will be allowed to continue in the form it was formed. I don't know. It was a very tricky time. I think after the first year, first year and a half, my ambition changed tremendously. All I wanted was to make sure that Take Back the Night is a well-attended, well-organized event. I think we had a very successful two first Take Back the Nights. They were both on Zoom. They were very well attended. [See the index for flyers from those events as well as a blood drive WILL did in 2021.] They were great. We played with these different formats. Certain things couldn't have happened. Then the first Take Back the Night after COVID was - I don't know. I feel I struggled with that one a lot, how it was being administered and what actually happened with the event.
00:08:46A.B.: That year I remember being a struggle. The coming back to in-person was its own challenge.
00:08:53A.M.: Yeah, exactly. There were so many changes on campus that we had to account for. Students were struggling as well. Yeah, there were a lot of struggles. In a sense, the first two Take Back the Nights, the ones that were online, were more successful, I think, than the third one, the one when we came back to being in person. At that point, I think my ambition was more so to just make sure that there is - there are still new students in the organization, that it's not disappearing completely, and that we were doing Take Back the Night.
00:09:30A.M.: The third year, I continued on trying to revise the WILL constitution, the structure, the change of the name from Women in Learning and Leadership to WILL+. [See the index for the name change proposal.] That was not supposed to be treated as an abbreviation but just as a separate word. I'm not sure whether it's still perceived that way, but that was the plan. We changed some of the requirements for the students, because before there were - and I honestly don't know how much of this has changed. My thinking was, there were classes that were required from students. I had a number of students saying that they would like to be involved, but they cannot take the classes that it would require, or they don't have space in their curriculum. So I tried to work on that. And I'm not sure whether that was a good decision or not because, in the end, I think WILL was an organization that was very much linked to the Women’s and Gender Studies curriculum. Once you detach it from it, I'm not sure whether it still serves the same goal that it initially served.
00:10:37A.B.: Those are hard things to think through.
00:10:40A.M.: But it also reflected the changing landscape of our campus.
00:10:45A.B.: Absolutely. Yeah, students just are more pressed for time, it seems like. [Amy's note: And more restricted in the classes they can take and what their financial aid will cover.] At least that's what I feel talking - having done, now, a lot of these interviews with people [who directed the programs] throughout the years. People were able to show up for more early on, and it had to do with how much students were working, the demands of their programs, these things.
00:11:14A.M.: Yeah, it seems to be - I was hoping that if we create some kind of requirement to take a one- or two-credit course with the WILL director, then they will get some foundations of how to think about gender. But then, of course, we ran into a problem of how the faculty will be paid for that. What does it mean for the year, for the credits that they are teaching, et cetera. It all became so complicated. Of course, there is no office that would help us to keep track of this. I'm not sure how Lara [Rusch] is solving the situation, how WILL has changed since my time.
00:12:00A.B.: When you were the director of WILL+ - so, now I'll start using that because that changed during the time you were there - did you feel like there was alignment between what mattered to you and how you spent your time?
00:12:14A.M.: Yeah, for the most part, I think. Again, this is the COVID time, so the way I was spending my time was being modified by what we were allowed to do. I felt disconnected completely from the world but also from the students. I was teaching classes that were asynchronous, and I had very little connection with the students. Just with a few that were willing to have that connection. I felt that if I'm struggling, then the students are struggling probably even more. I think for a while, for me and WILL, it was just this attempt to make sure that we have this connection and we have this support group. For a year and a half, WILL, I think, very much was a support group for people that were part of it or that were willing to join us. I think that very much aligned with - I thought it was important to do at that time, that this kind of support and connection.
00:13:19A.M.: We did a lot of little things for each other. For example, I don't remember if it was first year or second year, but they organized little self-care packages for all WILL members. A person delivered them to the houses of the WILL members. I think it was Sarah Khaleefah who drove around tea and little cups. I think we did a lot of little things like this to make sure that we, as a group, were okay. In addition to Take Back the Night, I think there was a panel, Zoom panel on women's history. [See the index for a recording of this panel featuring WILL president Hania Khan and panelists Kenja McCray, Georgina Hickey, Gerry Barrons, and Ania Müller.] I think that was mostly it the first COVID year. Yeah, I think the first year, two years even, very much aligned. The third year, honestly, is a blur. I don't know why. It's like the first two years, I remember what we were doing. The third year is a total blur. [See the index for some events that happened during the third year blur!] When we returned to campus, it just felt like nothing was in place.
00:14:20A.B.: You had an online infrastructure, and then you had to rebuild an in-person infrastructure.
00:14:25A.M.: Yes. We tried to meet in person, but that wasn't possible for many people. Plus, we didn't have a space to meet. We didn't have a place to meet. We started meeting in this lounge space on the second floor next to the dean's office. But we had to request a key every time. And then it turned out that a lot of students are afraid of coming in person, so we then decided we'll actually meet once a month in person and then to have the rest of the meetings on Zoom. I think people also got very busy suddenly and didn't have that much time for Zoom - for WILL. Because suddenly they just had to restructure their entire lives. We're still struggling with worries and hesitations about whether they are ready to fully come back from COVID.
00:15:21A.M.: The third year was a real struggle. I didn't know what direction WILL was taking at all. I think that was the time when - And you know, I was always giving students - I think this is their organization. They should run it. I'm there just in a supportive role. So I'm there always for them, but they should be doing the things they want to do. It shouldn't be me telling them what to do. I think the third year, more so than the first two years where I was more involved, I was mostly working on a written proposal for changes in WILL. They knew about all the changes, I discussed all of them with them. They were organizing the blood drive. Actually, maybe they did it on the second year. They were trying to go out and do different activities in the world with the local communities. I was formally, on paper, involved. I was helping them to pay for whatever they needed to pay. But they were very much in control. They were very much on their own.
00:16:29A.B.: You had a great president at that time, like you said. That makes such a difference.
00:16:35A.M.: Both of them, Hania Kahn and then Sarah Khaleefah, were amazing. Both of them, I think, were really great leaders. They were also learning an incredible amount. Oh, the third year, we had, actually, a nice event because I invited the students to my house. We were doing the posters in my house before Take Back the Night. This was also a nice bonding experience. It was outside, so a lot of people showed up, and people felt safe to be part of it.
00:17:10A.B.: Did the amount of time you spent on other things change while you were director, like research, teaching, or something else?
00:17:17A.M.: WILL was my introduction to service on campus that changed everything. [Laughter] Research. What's that? [Laughter] Yeah. I mean, I feel like I was involved in service before COVID, but it turned out that I wasn't. I actually had a little time. Now, looking back - [Muffled audio, laughter] That definitely changed. I think it connected me more to students, and this was great. This is exactly what I wanted. But then, of course, there is this other aspect of it that I'm not sure I'm loving as much. I think research and students are my first two commitments, and that's what I love doing. And service - serving on those committees and writing reports, that's what really I am struggling with.
00:18:10A.B.: Yeah me too.
00:18:11A.M.: But once you start, it's just hard to hold back sometimes.
00:18:17A.B.: Did being director influence your life outside of work in any way?
00:18:22A.M.: I mean, yeah, again, COVID, I think I was very isolated. I really struggled through the first year and a half of COVID. Because I like being alone, but I also need to connect with people. This was the time when I wasn't even in Michigan. This was the time when I was living in Urbana-Champaign, so I was in a community where I didn't know the town, didn't know anything, didn't know anybody. I think it was - WILL was my strongest connection to campus at that point. I'm really grateful that it came at the moment when it came because it was very beneficial for me, too.
00:19:00A.B.: I was thinking that for the students as well. When you were describing the support, I thought, what a precious thing for them to have at that moment.
00:19:09A.M.: I think so. I think the fact that we had those regular meetings and they were not very - very often, they were just social meetings for us to check in and see where we are and what's going on.
00:19:22A.B.: What were some things going on socially, culturally, or politically that shaped the program during your directorship? We talked a lot about COVID, so that's clear. You can add to that if you want to. Were there other things?
00:19:37A.M.: Well, there were some changes on our campus, right, that were happening, that made me - but I cannot think of anything else except for COVID. I'm just trying to think whether - because I came in after Black Lives Matter. We did one event, I think. This was my third year when we did one event linked to Black Lives Matter. I think that the biggest thing for us, for me, was definitely COVID and what was going on on campus. The disappearing structure of support for a lot of programs, WILL included. It just really felt like it was disappearing from underneath us.
00:20:21A.M.: Because I came in knowing that I - this is a solid situation. I wasn't quite sure whether it was justified. I'm not sure whether I was actually doing that much work to give me three course releases, but it definitely felt like I had time to do things with the students. By the time I was leaving, I knew that this situation, this context is completely gone. I think that was also affecting how I felt about WILL and leaving WILL and feeling that maybe I should have done more to strengthen the organization, to show the importance of the organization to the campus. Partially, I think because I felt very strong loyalty to the previous - the WILL mothers. The people who put so much energy into creating it and feeling like - we live in a very different context. There's less and less justification for an organization such as WILL, right?
00:21:21A.M.: I felt this pressure to sort of reinvent WILL. Partially because I knew that whoever is coming after me is not going to be given this time to actually work on it. Yeah, I'm not sure whether any of this was actually successful. I'm not sure where WILL is going at this point. I mean, I think seeing a lot of our - even right now, having freshman students coming to my classes - I just recently taught a class on - this was an honors class - on Ways of Knowing. My topic was feminism, right? Feminist ways of knowing. And I realized that most of the students actually have no idea what feminism is. That made me think that maybe organizations like WILL are important. But I'm not sure students are that willing to engage into student orgs of that type.
00:22:16A.B.: I agree. We're in a really conservative time, gender-wise. Just some affirmation. I mean, you may not need this, but through this experience of these interviews, I've realized some things. One is, the foremothers, they know we're in a different time. They're not holding us to the same standard as them[selves]. Also, I felt very similarly to you about Women’s and Gender Studies; that maybe we lost some of the resources we lost because I didn't use them enough or make us visible enough. But you know what, I think we would have lost those things no matter what we did.
00:22:59A.M.: You're probably right.
00:23:02A.B.: I mean, we can't know because there's one path. You can't go back and see what would have happened. Looking across at everybody losing resources, I don't think that we could have stood in the way of that steamroller.
00:23:16A.M.: I think you are right. Just listening to all the stories from the past, just telling us we were able to do this, and go to this conference, and do this and do this. We don't have students interested in it plus we don't have resources, and the role the university's education plays in students' lives is so much different now. It's not something I love seeing, but at the same time, this is the reality. I'm not sure it helps to deny that whatever is happening around us is real, and that's what we need to - yeah, I don't know how much we can resist that and how much you just have to go along with it.
00:24:00A.B.: How do you meet students who are exhausted and overwhelmed? I mean it took us with Pride, coming back with a student org - there were, I think, two years at least, where Pride was essentially nonfunctional. Everybody wanted it, and nobody could run it. I mean like to the point where we would have an eboard [executive board], and then they couldn't even finish the training to get the org officially launched. You know? Now, it's better. I think it was a period of time coming - I do think it was that post COV - [note from Amy: this was a self correction on my part] the part of the pandemic where we were socially distancing, and then the part where we started to unravel social distancing. The toll of the pandemic was still there. The anxiety of the pandemic was still there. Then we're dealing with students who missed huge portions of their educational experience. Locating this work in that historical period is important so that when we look back at it, we remember that about it.
00:25:11A.M.: Yeah, because sometimes I just look back like, how did I miss that we are in very different time period right now? It's just a very different world than we were in even five, six years ago. How did I miss it? You live through it, and then you look back and students are different, expectations are different, your role is different. It's like everything has changed. Nobody really prepared us for it.
00:25:35A.B.: So we kind of started getting into this question in an unexpected way. The next question was, tell me about the students. What were they like? I think that I'll just put that to you. But also, we've started talking about how the students started to change, and that's a really interesting part of that question that I hadn't thought about.
00:25:56A.M.: Students were great. The WILL presidents were both amazing. Really, all the students that joined us were really mature, willing to do hard work. I think we started with maybe more students than we ended up with. I think a lot of students graduated during COVID, and it was hard to get new students, again, like this time period of coming out of COVID. I think we're also more inclusive. We had students of different genders joining us. A person that was really one of the driving forces throughout all my three years, and I think after I left as well, was Penny Kane. I think Penny was part of WILL before with Francine. She has incredible energy, especially, I think, in the virtual settings. She was constantly on WhatsApp, on chat, sending best wishes, and making sure that everybody's doing okay. Always remembering about everybody. I think the fact that there was this non-traditional student doing that kind of thing for these younger students was very encouraging, and also a solid learning experience for the incoming students, for the junior students.
00:27:31A.M.: We really were a well-functioning, strong group, at least, again, for the first two years, with very strong, excellent presidents who both turned out to be great leaders. I think we had one or two trainings about leadership and what it means to be a leader in the community. We tried to talk about this from time to time, about the responsibilities for the group and sharing work and taking accountability. I really cannot imagine better presidents for the time when I was the WILL [director]. Hania Kahn, when she was leaving, she actually trained Sarah Khaleefah, who was coming in. It really worked really well. I don't know. I am maybe idealizing, but the first two years were really amazing.
00:28:28A.M.: The third year was also good, except that, as I mentioned, I stepped back a little bit from supervising what they were doing, since I was doing something different and giving them a free reign to do what they wanted to do. Plus, I felt like they were tired and had less time, so I didn't want them to feel like there was any pressure from me for them. Versus the first two years, I think the students felt like they needed to do more. They also had more time. Right? When they were doing things, there was actually an incredible group of support that they had from other members. Everybody was involved. The way Hania was running it, she had committees - Oh, another thing they did, they were sending letters to imprisoned women at some point. I think Penny Kane was running it. Penny was, for example, buying stamps and envelopes and delivering that to the houses of the WILL members. There was a lot of that kind of initiative that they took, they wanted to do.
00:29:35A.B.: How were you supported in the directorship, and by whom?
00:29:42A.M.: I was definitely supported by former WILL directors. Francine [Banner], Suzanne [Bergeron], Lisa [Martin], I definitely felt a strong support from them. There were a couple of people in the WILL advisory board who would do - I don't remember what it was, but she was doing yoga with us. Like the Zoom yoga, relaxation yoga. Something like relaxation sessions. Whenever we were stressed, we would reach out, and she would do those. There was that kind of support. Honestly, even working with Math was good. [Math became the administrative home for Women’s and Gender Studies, LGBTQ Studies, and WILL+ when we lost our staff in 2020.] I feel like they were very welcoming.
00:30:26A.B.: Yeah, they were.
00:30:28A.M.: That relationship worked really well from my perspective. I never had any kind of problems. They were fast. They were professional. They were very nice. They were very kind, even if I didn't know what I was doing. I guess what I'm missing is a sense that whatever you're doing makes sense in the larger structure of the university that is supported by administrators. Knowing how it fits, where it will go, what will happen, that's missing. It's one thing that we all encounter right now, and we all struggle with right now.
00:31:05A.B.: What are some things you learned about yourself as a result of this work?
00:31:09A.M.: Wow, that's a difficult question. I think I learned that I really like working with students. I mean, I sort of knew that, but this was - That's a difficult question. I don't know about myself.
00:31:23A.B.: Maybe it more just reflected who you are already.
00:31:28A.M.: I don't know. I sometimes feel like I'm not a very reflective person, and I'm usually not thinking about myself in those moments.
00:31:39A.B.: You're a little more enlightened than the rest of us. You’ve gotten a little further away from your ego. [Laughter]
00:31:46A.M.: It's more like I'm very task oriented. I get a job, I need to do it, so I do it. I learn whether I like it or not. I think I definitely learned that I'm capable of doing this. I shouldn't be afraid of running student organizations, interacting with students, and managing - there were no conflicts. There was nothing to manage, really. There were no conflicts at all the three years I was there. There were maybe personal problems, like emotional problems. Students would sometimes call me, and we would talk. I guess I learned that I am not afraid of having those conversations with students, and I welcome that. But I sort of always knew that, right? I welcome being open to them and hearing their feedback and having them rely on me in certain very personal moments. That wasn't something I was afraid of. It also, I think, spoke to my background. As you know, I am born in Europe and in Poland, which is not an individual - at least it wasn't when I was growing up - a very individualistic society. I never believed in this rule that you do it yourself and this is success. This reassured me that it's in working with others that you can actually grow, and that's how the world is becoming beautiful, not through your own making. But I think I've always had that kind of intuition.
00:33:18A.M.: I also got to know a lot of people, which was good. I went outside of my little history shell, history bubble, which was also very nice. It was, I think, all positive. There were moments when this was a lot of work. But really, I think the satisfaction from just being with students was greater than the work. Except for, again, this fear that I'm just not sure where this is all going, whether there is a future for WILL. I think that's still with me. I don't necessarily know what's happening with WILL, but I'm not sure there is a place for them in the heads of the administrators in this new university that's emerging, that we don't even know what it is going to be.
00:34:12A.B.: That's true. It was what it needed to be at the time for the season you had it. What are some things you learned about WILL as a result of this work?
00:34:23A.M.: I was very eager to do this work, but I wasn’t - this idea of women's leadership and learning, this idea that we need an organization that is focused on - it just felt like we are past that point. I wasn't sure whether this - I mean, it sounds bad. I knew it was important for this university, but I wasn't sure how important it is for students. Now, 2025, I think it's very important because there are some concepts that we take for granted that are completely alien to students. Students would definitely benefit from having those workshops, talking about gender, talking about women's roles, talking about leadership, talking about ethical leadership. Really, I learned that, if anything, there should be more energy maybe put into WILL. Maybe WILL should be turned into something larger, like trainings in ethical leadership, for example, that sort of includes the conversation on what gender is and how it functions, how it operates in society. Because from my students, I think they understand it less and less. It’s very frightening.
00:35:48A.B.: Yeah, I agree with that.
00:35:50A.M.: If anything, I think I learned that WILL is important, and it maybe should transform itself into something bigger.
00:35:58A.B.: What are some things you learned about the college or university as a result of this work?
00:36:03A.M.: The college doesn't care. [Laughter] I learned that I don't know what college is for. Because I've always felt it's a space where ideas grow, where relationship form, where difficult conversations are being held, where we intellectually, emotionally, socially grow. Then I realized it's a machine to create - to just think about numbers. I think this was the moment when I started realizing this, and now I'm just terrified.
00:36:42A.B.: It feels more and more like a vocational school.
00:36:45A.M.: Yes. Yeah.
00:36:49A.B.: What memories of the program do you cherish?
00:36:52A.M.: I think my best memories, I think one of them is when we met for the first time after coming out of COVID on campus. It must have been August or maybe September, when we met to do some fliers and posters for WILL in general. Not only Take Back the Night. We spent half a day on campus outside of - behind the administration building. And it was great. It was the first time when we actually met in person and talked. We ordered pizza. We had pizza with us and some drinks. There were tons of bees, I think, or flies of some kind, I don't know. [Laughter] We actually had a wonderful afternoon. It was I think Sunday afternoon. This was great. A lot of people came. They just wanted to be together. That's one of my most cherished memories.
00:37:50A.M.: I think the yoga - there's like a name for this yoga. I don't remember the name for this yoga. It's like this very meditative yoga that we did on Zoom. I also love those. Just seeing how students - how they talk about falling asleep in front of Zoom. [Laughter]
00:38:10A.B.: Yoga nidra, maybe.
00:38:12A.M.: No, yoga nidra! Exactly. [Laughter] We did a couple of sessions of those together, and this was also great.
00:38:25A.B.: What advice would you give to a director of WILL+ today?
00:38:28A.M.: I think maybe to reflect on some of the questions that you gave me. Because I think I have a very different approach to things. As I told you, I am very task oriented. The reflection comes with time for me. It's just like I am given a task, and like, okay, what can we do, what can we do? I'm slowly realizing now that I am very task oriented. I think one of the first things I learned from Suzanne [Bergeron] and the meetings in gender studies when I came to this university is a phrase that I think she - I heard from her for the first time. I don't remember the phrase exactly, but it was along the lines of, imagine all the things you could do, even though you cannot do them. Imagine big, dream big. Because it was this one moment, it was years ago when she was suggesting - maybe it was in a Social Sciences meeting - that we can put all the constraints aside and dream big. I actually think it's an amazing exercise to imagine what we need, what this campus needs at this moment, and how can we dream this bigger structure for WILL and how it would fit. Because I think this is something that we often don't do. How WILL fits into the larger structure of the university. I think I was afraid of doing this because I was afraid of also realizing that it doesn't fit. There is no support. But maybe if more people have the courage to do that.
00:40:05A.B.: Do you have a way you see it fitting, in your dream?
00:40:08A.M.: I started recently dreaming of creating a leadership major. I was thinking something that could bring history and gender studies and creating - or transforming, maybe, WILL into [something] more inclusive. Because I think it's still - I'm struggling with this, whether it should be - because the idea of changing the name, moving from Women in Learning and Leadership to WILL[+] was to make it more inclusive, right? But I still see that people use it as women in leadership and learning. I'm struggling with this. Should it be mostly for women? I'm not sure. On one hand, I am thinking we have a lot of women coming from more conservative, traditional households, so they may need that platform. But at the same time, I think it should become more inclusive. Because through that inclusivity, we actually learn better.
00:41:04A.M.: That will be, I think, my first question, right now, for if it was to fit. Because it will work well with gender studies. But I think in this new landscape where we almost see our school or any higher learning as vocational, maybe providing them with solid leadership skills should be broader than just related to a few students. Maybe it should be a major. Then it could be part - a student org. I just don't know what kind of student org, whether it could be for all genders or mostly for women. I would say mostly - I would say for all genders, but I see a tendency on our campus to call it a women's organization. I also see how some can see our campus as needing an organization that also speaks to - gives women this more free, safe space to talk about [muffled audio] positions.
00:42:11A.B.: You've given me a lot of stuff to think about after the interview, too.
00:42:15A.B.: What do you hope changes, if anything, for future directors?
00:42:19A.M.: What I would change?
00:42:21A.B.: Yeah, or what you hope changes.
00:42:24A.M.: I would give them - I would keep the course releases.
00:42:29A.B.: [Laughter] Yeah. Course releases come back. What do you hope stays the same, if anything?
00:42:38A.M.: I don't think anything is the same anymore. I want to say I love those celebrations when WILL and gender studies celebrate together the end of the year. I love those moments. Those should stay. I'm not sure anything else is - it's just I don't know what is going to stay, what is going to change. I would love to see more student engagement because I think that is one of the problems. It's nice to have three or four people involved, but it should be bigger than that. It used to be bigger than that. We have to also reflect what works for students. I think maybe creating a major in leadership would actually convince students that this is worth doing because they are getting a major out of it or some credit, right?
00:43:28A.B.: Some type of credential. They're in such a credentialed world.
00:43:32A.M.: Exactly. Because that's what they need. That's the way we are thinking about the world right now.
00:43:38A.B.: That's right. How do you see the WILL+ and the Women’s and Gender Studies programs fitting into the larger picture of your career and life?
00:43:51A.M.: I think it's just showed me what I love doing the most. Working with small groups of people on different projects. I think it's just part - and you know, thinking about the world through gender, differently defined. I think this is who I am. And how does it fit? It just confirms some of my life choices, I think.
00:44:19A.B.: Those are the end of my questions. Was there anything that I didn't ask you or you wanted to add?
00:44:26A.M.: No. [Laughter]
00:44:28A.B.: If you think of things later, you can -
00:44:30A.M.: These were hard questions, but I am glad you didn't ask me about specifics of when we did what.
00:44:35A.B.: No, no. There's no reason - you don't need to store that in your brain. I don't know any of that stuff from my directorships. Thank you so much for your time. I really, really appreciate you.
00:44:46A.M.: Thank you for inviting me for this.
