Mohammad Elahi

Michigan Iranian American Oral History Project

Muhammad Ali Elahi. Interviewed by Camron Michael Amin. 2017. Michigan Iranian American Oral History Project. The University of Michigan Dearborn.

Elahi: Let's start from the beginning. Bismillah ir-Rahman ir-Rahim [In the name of God most gracious most merciful].[1] My name is Muhammad Ali Elahi. They call me Imam Elahi here in United States. I was born in a village called Ashan, a village in Isfahan province in Iran. I left the village when I was twelve years old, directly going to the Houzah,[2] seminary in Isfahan. And I studied in Isfahan for a while and then I moved to Tehran. I liked to go to bigger cities, even from the beginning when I was in Isfahan.

Q: Can I as when you were in Isfahan at the Houzah there, were did you live? Did you live with family there? Or were you actually in, essentially, a dorm?

Elahi: Yes, we had what they call hujrah, the small rooms inside the schools. The area that I used to both live and study was a madrasah called Madreseh-e Mollah Abdullah.[3] It was close to Meydan-e Shah [Shah's 00:01:00Square] of that time, they call it Meydan-e Imam [Imam's Square] at this time in Isfahan. I have a hujrah on the second floor. It was just myself, sometimes because of too many students, sometimes we had to share the room two or three. But most of the time I had a small hujrah, small room, that it was just me.

Q: Who would serve as, I guess, your - I am trying to think of the equivalent - the person that would supervise you when you're not in class per se, but just supervise your day. Was there something like that? Or were you just on your own?

Elahi: Yeah, we were on our own actually, but the whole atmosphere, we-- When you are in that situation and you are going for really a pure religious purposes, you are your own supervisor. Because, really, you are in the path of piety and education and you are there to be closer to God and to promote, you 00:02:00know, the divine duties and discipline. For that reason, I mean originally - I am not saying that now everybody is there - I'm not saying we were perfect or anything like that. But of course, we had ustaads [Professors],[4] we had teachers that they were in communication with us. They would value or evaluate our situation. Many of my teachers were so happy. And they were saying your situation is very promising and you are going to have a great future. I don't know where is that great future [laughs].[5] I don't think I got it yet, but yeah, they were happy.

Q: How do, I guess, apply to a school like that? Or - Is it a recommendation 00:03:00from a local teacher where you were? Or do you - Was there an application process? Or-- How did that work?

Elahi: It's more sophisticated and more complicated now. But those days, I'm talking about forty-five years ago, now we are two-thousand and seventeen. You can imagine that forty-seven years ago, actually, when I started my seminary, not too many people were going to the seminaries at that time. There was space. I mean - When I went to Ayatollah Imami - Ayatollah Hassan Imami, who passed away - God bless his soul - just a couple of years ago he passed away. He was [a] very popular Imam Ayatollah and professor of the Houzah. He established the Madresseh-e Zolfaqar [Zulfaghar Madrassah] in Isfahan's Bazar. I was one of the 00:04:00first students, as a matter of fact we were the first generation of that school when the school was established. So I went directly to him and I said, "I am coming from a village, I don't have anybody here, and I don't have money." So he encouraged me, and he said, "Yeah you can join our school and if you are successful after a couple of months, we start giving some scholarships. And you know a scholarship at that time was like ten tomans[6] during the month. One dollar a month. It was not too much. But still, for us who had nothing, it was a big deal.

Q: Was there, sort of -- Was room and board provided basically besides the stipend? Were you fed there as well? Lodged there?

Elahi: No, the school didn't provide really food or anything like that. We had 00:05:00to struggle and find something simple. I mean, the school would do something here and there randomly, but it not like a systematic support system when it comes to food. Except after a while that you're established and you are known that you are successful you are serious about your studies, they start giving some money that you survive, hardly survive with that. But still really that was not our issue. It was a hard though, I mean always just have some bread, and have some cheese, and some tomato, and things like that, so simple. But the passion that I had, and the enthusiastic emotions for what I was doing like when I go to the seminary like I feel I am in heaven. I just look at the buildings 00:06:00and look at those rooms and the trees inside the school, it was like giving me a sense of heaven. So at that situation, you don't really care too much. You eat whatever you can, and still you survive. So that was not really a big issue. But it was hard.

Q: This is Isfahan in the nineteen-seventies?

Elahi: Exactly, yeah, right.

Q: I was there in seventy-eight. One of the things that struck me about Isfahan at that time, is that there was of course the Safavid everything, there was the religious everything, there was the bazar, Meydan-e Shah, Naqsh-e Jahan and all that. There was also a lot of tourism. There was a lot of, there were a lot of Americans there for Roman Aircraft and Bell Helicopter. And it was the time of the Shah. How much of the cosmopolitan, Shah-Isfahan did you encounter as a 00:07:00young man? How much of it was more or less within your Houzah, within your school, and that was almost a separate world? Or did you move back and forth between the two?

Elahi: You know, at that time I was not even at that level of-- I mean I was so busy of my own world that I didn't think too much of the details of what was going on and, especially, that was a taboo. Like to go for a-- For a seminary students to go to associate with, you know, European, American, tourist in Meydan-e Shah. It was something that we were not encouraged to do. To go and watch ladies and, you know, communicate with them. But I knew that there was some students that they were more advanced from this kind of science and sophistications that they used to go and talk to improve their English language. 00:08:00But at that time I was not even at that level. I mean I was in a level of very fundamental, basic survivor as a newcomer to Isfahan. And, as I said, and also some cultural barriers there, it was not something like encouraging or something nice for a seminary students to go and mix with tourists at that time.

Q: How about, sort of, the general public, regular people in the various mahalehs [neighborhoods] and shahrs [towns] of Isfahan? Were you in at the Houzah or did you go throughout the city into regular neighborhoods?

Elahi: You know, the neighborhood, the school was in the Bazar [of] Isfahan, so we go for basic things, if you want to do something from labaniyat [dairy products] you want to get some cheese, yogurt, or, you know, bread or something. And some of those bazaaris [merchants] some of those market people, in 00:09:00traditional way they were religious. Sometimes they take stuff and they come to the school to the Houzah and sit down and eat with us. So it was an interaction. There was an interaction between us and the people. Or sometimes we want to go to hamam [shower] the public shower. We didn't have hamam [shower] inside the school, so if you wanted to take a shower, which is like once a week or so, there is not like today, we take twice shower every day. But it was like once a week. And then we have to go to the public bath or for that reason we see people, publicly, that they come. You know, like normal people. And also our own gatherings. The gatherings of students that we get together sometimes we share food and we have conversation and so on and so forth. There was different kinds 00:10:00of interaction.

Q: When you were a young student, where did you imagine your career being? Because you were there to study, did you imagine you would always be, say, sort of a teacher and an academic religious person in that sense or did you imagine you would do something else with your training?

Elahi: No, actually, I was, first of all, I-- Later on, I realized I had the vision even from the beginning of going to bigger places without really thinking about it too much. But it was like without noticing it, it was like an interest of same things. Because later on my friends, my friends, they told me, "You remember you were saying 'this, this, this,' Even in school it looks like you were thinking about it." I said, "Not really like a serious reflection, but it 00:11:00was an interest of being more public, going to public, communicate with people, and at that time the maximum thing I thought of was to go and give lectures to different cities or different towns in Iran. And I started that from very beginning. After a few years in Houzah, when it was like Ashura[7] or month of Ramadan,[8] I used to put like an amamah [turban], and you know, although I was not officially mo'ammam[9] yet. But for those occasions, I used to put a amamah and you know dressing, and going like. I remember the first time I went to Arak and Durud, there was karkhaneh-e siman [cement factory] at that time in Durud. You know, and people were really excited. And that encourage me a lot, when I go there and I give lecture and very young, I mean when you are like fifteen years old at that time and you give lectures, didn't have even a 00:12:00beard, very young guy. And people were like very interested and very encouraging. They used to give me some money here and there for the lecture and that encouraged me even more [laughs].

Q: When you say lecture, my temptation is to think: sermon? Or is that wrong, is it some exclamation about some point of faith? What would the lecture subjects be? How would an engagement happen? You would be approached? How would people know?

Elahi: Yeah, you know, like, for example, we knew that in Ashura or in Ramadan, usually the mosques all over the country and towns and villages they need a sheikh to go there and lead the prayer and give some lecture. So we knew that. So we would go for example to bigger cities that central of provinces, and there 00:13:00were some ulama [scholars] there, some scholars that they were references of villages and towns in that province. And they used to tell us that, "We know this area, they are in need of a speaker." So they used to send us to different areas. And then when we go one time, and they know us, next time they come and directly invite. So that's how it works. So it was ceremony, it was lecture. It was in different issues. But religious issues, religious issues. But sometime, at that time, because of the political circumstances of the country, we used to indirectly say something that in political sense, like it was like disagreement with some of the policies that were going on as well. But mainly people invited us for religious purposes. Just have a ceremony about Ahl-ul Bayt 00:14:00[10] about Imam Hussein, about Ramadan, about Qu'ran, about, you know, Islamic laws, about moral issues. The things that were good for the people.

Q: What was the most interesting question you got from the lecture circuit you got from those days? Do you remember?

Elahi: Not that much of questions, people used to just listen. I mean, it was time not like now that people say, "Why this and why that?" And people are very, very critical. And they are not just listening to every stuff without, at this time. They level of awareness of people is much higher than like fifty years ago. So at that time, yeah, we used to give lectures and there was something that people, if religiously, if you say something they know that you know they had different opinion about this same subject, they would come and they try to 00:15:00correct us or question or comment. But it was not that much. It was not like today that you have to be so careful when you give a lecture, you have to really do some research. At that time we were just traditional, you know, something standard that everybody was talking about. Standard stuff, and you go and you deliver, and, more and less, people listen.

Q: Would a lecture be like you would do, or an event like you would do, would that be around or coordinated with other kinds of religious activity that for example, a ta'ziyeh [11] play or something like that? Or would it be a totally separate thing? Would it be integrated with other religious activity? Or would it stand alone?

Elahi: Yeah, the lectures that I was doing, it was just a lecture. I mean, I start from introduction, I go to some verses, I say some hadith, some traditions 00:16:00and sayings of the prophet and the Imams. And at the end I do like something about the tragedies, that Ahl-ul Bayt the family of the prophet went through, and the emotional part of it. Talking about the suffering and sacrifice, the pains people of faith went through and especially Ahl-ul Bayt, Imam Hussein, and his family. Every lecture traditionally used to end with something about the sacrifice of the prophet's family. And sacrifice of Imam Hussein's family. It was different from-- Today some people keep it the same way in Iran, and some people they just give a general lecture.

Q: As you were doing this, were you imagining your life as an up-and-coming 00:17:00cleric, if I can put it that way, an up-and-coming member of the clergy, in Iran, or were you imagining a life outside of Iran at that point?

Elahi: No, at that time, when I started the first few years really, when I was in Isfahan, it was very limited. I was thinking just continuing that and increase my knowledge, and continue my studies, and become more knowledgeable about the subjects and continue that but since I went to Tehran, and things started changing. I mean Tehran is a bigger city, is a bigger vision. And when I was [in] Tehran, I thought, "Now I am in the center of the whole world." Tehran was a big thing for me.

Q: When did you start in Tehran?

Elahi: In Tehran, I moved to Madresseh-e Marvi [Marvi School] in Naser Khosro, there is a street close to bazar, in Tehran, Bazar-e Tehran [Tehran Grand 00:18:00Bazar]. There was a school called Sepahsalar it was behind the Marvi school. And I got a room there in the hujrah on the second floor of Sepahsalar school. And I started there for a couple of years. But then I went and rented an apartment in Tehran. Later on, that I started to think about marriage, and I married in Tehran then I bought a small house by then I used to give lectures also in Tehran and, out of the services that I used to give, people did some compensation and some gifts for every lecture. And that was actually the basis of starting the family life and marriage and also buying a small house in 00:19:00Tehran. That was it.

Q: Did this all happen before the revolution?

Elahi: Yes.

Q: So you were established.

Elahi: I got established in Tehran before revolution and so I got a house and then, later, we moved to a bigger house in Narmak area, in the Mantagheh-e Narmak [Narmak area] in the east of Tehran. Yeah. And when revolution happened I was already established and was giving the services and went to prison for a while before revolution. The year before, they year that the ended to revolution, for over three months I think I was in Evin Prison. Yeah because it was the last Ramadan before revolution that I used to give lectures in Tehran in 00:20:00Masjed-e Imam Hussein [Imam Hussein's Mosque] they used to call it Meydan-e Fouzieh [Fouzieh Square] now it's Meydan-e Imam Hussein [Imam Hussein Square] in Tehran. So as I was in Ramadan, I was leaving from one mosque to another mosque. And I had a car and I had a driver at that time. So they stopped our car and you they told my driver to stay away and they took both of us to Komiteh-e Zed-e Kharabkari [Committee Against Bad Activies] Komiteh-e Zed-e Kharabkari was SAVAK.[12] So then...

Q: This is the anti-corruption campaign?

Elahi: Yeah. You know, that was like a, kharabkari, what we call it today, today, you can call it terrorism. Mokharreb [one who breaks things], right? Anyone who said anything against Shah, or against the government that was, you 00:21:00know, dealing with the political police which called SAVAK at that time.

Q: This is after Jaleh Square or before Jaleh Square?[13]

Elahi: Actually, Jaleh Square happened, I was in prison when Jaleh Square happened. At that time I was in Evin prison we heard that one million people - Usually, it was exaggeration, too much exaggeration. "Oh, one million people were killed!" And it was not true, of course. But that was it, when the revolution happened, then after a while, they asked me to go to the Navy. And have an Anjoman-e Islami [Islamic Group] and work with the officers and the soldiers in the Navy because they were more western culture, they were very westernized, the officers in the Navy.

Q: So you were going to re-introduce the Naval Officer Quarter to religious values?

Elahi: Yes.

Q: Was this before the war broke out or after the war broke out? When you were with the Navy.

Elahi: After revolution, of course, right.

Q: After the revolution you go to the Navy, had the war started yet with Iraq? Or was that before the war?

Elahi: It was before the war starts, right.

Q: So you were already working like that?

Elahi: Not couple of years, it start like maybe a year or so or maybe less that started with the Navy. And then war started. When war started, I was already there. As a matter of fact, I used to go to jebhe [The front], to the front, not for fighting, I was not trained in a military way, but just to see the soldiers and to encourage them and religiously, actually, energize myself and others. I got wounded in the war, actually, in Khorramshahr, I was wounded. I was with a 00:23:00soldier, we were walking on the street in Khorramshahr, you know, they sent these missiles, it exploded next to us. I almost lost my left foot. So they took us miraculously because the city was collapsing, nobody was in the city. But accidentally, there was another car that they were escaping from the scene too, they saw us wounded, they hurry up, they took us to the hospital in Abadan, and in Abadan they did a surgery on my foot and also in my right hand. Then, after couple of weeks in the darkness of night, because the city was under bombardment and everything, they couldn't move. So in the darkness of the night they took us to the, with hovercraft, they took us to Bushehr, and from Bushehr with airplane 00:24:00to Tehran in the hospital. So I was in hospital for a while, over a month in Tehran. Before going to back to work. Yeah.

Q: Where was the naval base then, that you were working at?

Elahi: The headquarters was in Tehran. The Navy headquarter was in Tehran. But I used to go to different bases, like to Bandar Anzali, or Bandar Abbas, or Chahbahar. Different areas where there were-- I started going there. And I had a very good relationship with the officers because that really saved the Navy. Because some areas people was rigid and acting so fanatic in their-- But the openness the friendship and good relationship that I had with the Navy, with the 00:25:00commanders, with the soldiers, with everyone. Our office was very popular, really. They didn't look at us as outsiders. We are so friendly and that is why the Navy stayed the same, it didn't go through paksazi [Purging of dissidents] that they used to say, paksazi at that time, they used to remove officers and things from the bases. And Navy, Iranian Navy stayed the same and that's why when [the] war started, the navy was very strong and they defeated the Iraqi Navy right away. So the Iraqis couldn't come and show themselves on the scene for the entire world, because the Iranian Navy was very strong.

Q: So this would be regular Navy, not units that would be Republican Guard? Because the Republican Guard has its own sort of parallel.

Elahi: Yes.

Q: You're basically regular military?

Elahi: Regular military, I mean at that time when we started the Navy we didn't have Sepah-e Pasdaran [Revolutionary Guard] yet. It had not started yet, and the Sepah Navy started much, much later. So at that time, the Navy, especially the Navy, was the same regular Navy that was before revolution.

Q: You're doing all these things that are very establishing in Iran. You're supporting-- your career, you're part of the war effort in your way. I'm wondering how you go from that...

Elahi: Extremist to another extremism?

Q: Well, I don't know about extremism, but it's one very involved situation where there's a lot to be in Iran, but there's this interesting ongoing elsewhere. How did that sort of change where you thought, you mentioned the trip to England. How did that come about and was that instrumental in giving you 00:27:00ideas about seeing other parts of the world or being in other parts of the world?

Elahi: You know, I was in the Navy for a while, then I left. I was like probably five years that I was there, and then I left and I started more on learning more English, and think about different activities. For a while, I started working with Tehran Times, which was a newspaper in English. So started writing some religious articles for them, sometimes in English and they edit it, sometimes in Farsi and they translate it. And then my trip to London, England to continue my working on the language. So I was in London for a while, and then went back to 00:28:00Iran. Establish a research center for Bonyad Shaheed [Martyr's Foundation] at that time. You know those martyrs from Iran-Iraq war, there was an organization dealing, helping their families. And I established something to work on some cultural, religious aspect of that. So with the few people we had two volumes of work they call Safiran-e Noor, two volumes of a book called Safiran-e Noor, focused on the ideas and motivations and spiritual elements in minds of the martyrs, what they thought and how they chose to sacrifice for their causes. So 00:29:00that was really, in my situation a gradual transition from one phase to another phase. But I was never like an extremist in any area that I was working. So it was like kind of - I don't know if liberal be a right word for that. But I am saying that always against extremism, whether in the school, in the Houzah or when I was in the Navy, again the same thing. And sometime I was blamed or accused for being this balance behavior and balanced approach in political and social things. But then being interested in public service and public lecture, 00:30:00whether being in Navy, still I used to go and talk in the mosque and then even in London I used to be in touch with the centers in London that they used to have religious activities, so that was really part of my life. So when I came to United States, it was normal too. Because I continue the same community services and giving lectures, religious and social lectures, moral lectures. So it was not really coming from one extremism to another extremism. For me it was a normal transition.

Q: I'll see if I'm getting, that your normal trajectory of your career was almost organically bringing you towards experiences outside of Iran. Did you 00:31:00routinely travel outside of Iran besides for these occasions? To see different parts of the world? Or was it in connection with these [things] like learning English, or connecting with these communities?

Elahi: I liked to travel even at that time, whether inside Iran, and outside Iran of course was limited. To go to Hajj, to go to Meccah, to go to Soriyah [Syria] for ziyarah.[14] When I was in Navy, the first trip to Europe was to Italy. So there was actually a trip for some officers from the Navy that they were going for a week for some work there in Italy. And they included me in that group as well. And it was really, for me, it was very 00:32:00interesting development. Going with the officers, and going to restaurant in Rome, and, you know, doing some shopping [laughs].

Q: Was that the first visit to a European country?

Elahi: Yeah, that was to [a] European country. Yeah, because that was even before I went to London. The first time was in Italy, yes.

Q: So, I guess maybe we should - How did you move from those issues towards to come to Michigan? We talked about it a little bit earlier. How does Michigan to be? How do you come to Michigan?

Elahi: How I came to Michigan, you know when I was in Tehran Times and I worked with Tehran Times [at] different stages, we received a letter from the Assembly of World Religions, inviting somebody, it can anybody, the letter didn't have 00:33:00any name, somebody from Tehran Times, and at that time, not really communication. Nobody knew anybody in Iran. It was not that much connection. So they just, I think randomly they sent this letter to Tehran Times, because that was the address that they had. I mean they had no Tehran Times an English thing somebody knew, the address. They sent the letter there. And there was a conversation, I have some other friends, they just throw it out. They said, "This is nothing." Nobody paid attention. I said, "You know, let us take it." They said, "Nobody can go, and nobody can get visa, they are not going to give you visa, put it in the garbage." I said, "I am going to try it, if [it] worked, worked, it didn't work, didn't work." So I took the letter, and I went to Dubai 00:34:00to get a visa, and they rejected. So I insisted, "Why are you rejecting? This is a religious conference, and I go for religious purpose, what is the reason? Why do you say no? Why you deny?" They didn't want to explain, so I said, "I am going to talk to the ambassador. Let me go to the ambassador." [Laughs] They said, "You cannot talk to ambassador, but you can call the ambassador." So I got the telephone number and I called the ambassador and the secretary answered and I said, "This is the situation, they rejected me, and I don't know why." Then she said, "Go and apply again tomorrow." I don't know if they had said anything from the ambassador's office or just normal, so I went the day after again, same embassy, and I applied, and talked with one of another officer. At this time, they told me that, "Ok, we put this in the process and we send it to D.C. and it 00:35:00make take a month to get an answer." So I went back to Tehran and keep calling them. "What happened?" And finally, they said, "Your visa is ready, your visa is ready."

Q: This is ninety-one?

Elahi: It was, no, before ninety-one, probably it nineteen, or eighty-nine. So I got the visa and then set up the thing for the conference through Turkey, I got a ticket. And this complicated things. How I got to Turkey, and the flight from Istanbul to Frankfurt is tomorrow nine in the morning, and I didn't know that need a transit visa to go to Frankfurt, and now it was four o'clock and the embassy is closed, the German embassy is closing Istanbul and nine in the 00:36:00morning that means I have to be at the airport seven in the morning. I need this visa otherwise I cannot fly. So that is totally like a miraculous thing how I went there and it was closed and I said that, "Should be like an emergency thing, isn't it?" [Laughs] I said, "What if somebody is sick and needs to go Germany tomorrow? And is emergency? Don't you have a service for emergency things?" And then by chance there was just one lady inside the building in the consulate section in Istanbul. And when she heard from those guard at the door, the gate of the embassy, she said, "Ok, let him come." And this lady amazingly, was like an angel. She did everything, she took me to their office, and applied, 00:37:00I didn't know German. She helped me to apply for the visa. And then I had to pay some money. I had one hundred dollars, she didn't have change, she said, "Don't worry you don't have to even pay for that." Amazingly looks like when God wants something, he just, if his plan is there, everybody was shocked that I got the visa while the embassy was even closed [laughs]. And later on, when I went back to Iran, I got her address and I sent a twenty dollars or something, I put it in an envelope and I sent it to [Turkey]. And she replied, "Why you sent money? That was for the pleasure of your trip, you didn't have to send it back, if anytime you need anything, you let us know." I realized that this lady, she was 00:38:00married to I think a Muslim man in Istanbul, I think her husband was Muslim. So whatever the reason was, she realized my emergency situation, that I was really desperate to get that, otherwise I miss the flight, and I miss the conference because the conference would start the day after. So I had arranged the flight to be in San Francisco a night before the conference, and if I missed that, they didn't have flight for Frankfurt, Germany for the next three days. So that would really be the total, missing the entire event. So that was amazing. I went to San Francisco, I was there for a week for the conference. Then I decided to travel to some states, including Michigan. Then when I stopped by in Detroit, I 00:39:00realized that there is an Islamic Center and Imam Sherri was there. He was very old and, God bless his soul, he passed away two or three years after that. He was not functioning anymore, he had Alzheimer's. They said that, "We really need someone, you are young." I was very young at that time, how much? About over thirty. "You speak English, you are good for our youth, come here, and please stay. You didn't come here yourself, you are a gift. God sent you here, so stay with us." I went back to Iran though. I couldn't stay, I had a job there I had family there. And so many things. They kept writing to me, and a year, year and a half later, I moved here to Michigan.

Q: Did the religious organization sponsor you as an employee? Is that how that 00:40:00would work?Elahi: Yes, the Islamic center, they hired me for three years. So they used to take care of the expenses, the basic things that I needed. So after a year I brought my family, it took me a year to bring my family as well.

Q: In a sense, you really had a choice of whether to continue career in Iran or to start a career in the states. Did you ever imagine that you would stay in the states? Did you imagine it would be temporary thing where you would go back to Iran after having worked in the states for a while? Were you thinking that you were going to establish yourself here and be here as long as that was going to be? It's quite a transition for some people. I wonder how you felt about the idea of living in America and whether that was in any way difficult to think about.

Elahi: Yeah, I mean I couldn't think too much, I was wondering that which direction it's going to go. But after meeting with the community and being interested, and enjoying what I was doing, and appreciation that people showed. I thought that while that is really a good opportunity here. In Iran we have so many sheikhs,[15] so many Imams, so many of us over there, much much better than me. Much more knowledgeable, more everything better than me. But not everybody would have a chance to be here. Now that I was able to make it, and be a part of the community, so really I worked hard to-- You know, at that time it was very hard, we didn't have like today internet and email and cell phone. None of this existed twenty-six years ago in this country. 00:42:00It was hard, even it was hard for me to call Iran. It was not just directly you can take telephone, I think you had to call the company and they connect you somehow and we never thought about even cell phones like today at that time, or any of this.

Q: Was this was ninety-one, ninety-two?

Elahi: Yes.

Q: Ninety, ninety-one?

Elahi: The end of ninety-one, right. Yeah.

Q: Did you have to make any decisions about the choices you make about how you would stay connected to-- You were going to be connected to religious life because you were coming for that purpose, but in terms of being connected to your Iranian culture in other ways, were there things you wanted to do to make sure that happened? In terms of ways of staying connected to things Iranian? Or 00:43:00was that not really a challenge for you?

Elahi: You know it was a challenge in a sense of, you know, I was here from government here kind of suspicious of, oh, I am coming from Iran, Islamic Revolution in Iran, and Ayatollah Khomeini there. I remember when I applied for a green card here, a lady was interviewing me. She said, "Did you come here to overthrow the American government?" [Laughs] I laughed and I said, "Do you really think I am able just myself coming from Iran to overthrow the American government? You give me so much credit, I don't think I never had this in my mind." But then I go to Iran, and the same suspicion that they think I maybe I am working with CIA or FBI. You know, how can I go to America if I don't have 00:44:00the blessing of FBI or CIA? Really the ignorance, that still exists somehow here and there. Still people look at people like me with suspicion. If I go to Iran they look at me with suspicion as well. Still it's not over, but it's better that it used to be. In the beginning I didn't go to Iran, I think the first four years. And-- I knew though, that there are people even some of my friends that they would think that it's impossible to go America if you don't have some sort of connection or there is no intelligence services supports you. So you should have some connection to go there. And here, some people they say the fact that 00:45:00you are coming from that country, you might have an agenda in your mind. But later on, I think both sides they settled in my situation. That really is not either of them. I never had connections with the FBI or CIA [laughs] at all regarding the situation. And I went coming from Iran, I never had any connection with intelligence services over there that I am going to America and whatever. It was just a personal interest, a personal opportunity, and personal vision that not too many people care that much or pay that much attention, I just took that letter seriously and I just was serious about following the things, and I was interested. There are a lot of people they are not interested at all. So 00:46:00that's a different thing.

Q: The way in which you are an Imam here and the way which in you are a religious leader here, is it different than the way you could be a religious, you know, person or a religious servant, if I can put it that way, in Iran? Are there different challenges here? Different opportunities here to be-- to show the leadership?

Elahi: Yeah, I enjoy it here, honestly. I think that there is more need here, things are taken more seriously. I mean, in Iran, everybody is Muslim, there are most mosques in the cities. Here we have more challenges and more opportunities and it requires more works. And I really enjoy the services I do here. And now settled here, myself, my family, friends, communities. And especially 00:47:00interfaith, now I am very much, probably House of Wisdom is one of the most involved mosques in the entire country when it comes to interactions with other communities, especially the Christian communities, and clergy. As a matter of fact, today at four o'clock, we have a group of clergy come to House of Wisdom, Muslims and Christians, and maybe a couple of Jews as well. That we are going to deal with this Muslim Ban, or Islamophobia. And other issues. I mean Islamophobia is an issue for Muslims, but for non-Muslims, immigration in general. The question of poverty. Like racism, hatred, African-Americans, issues 00:48:00of other communities. Drugs, for example, prisons, there are so many other things that are interesting for other communities. So we are get together to see what are you concerns? What are your fears? What are your challenges? What are your struggles? What are the solutions in your mind? What do you think? Your vision, future. We keep constantly communicating on this issues and I really enjoy it.

Q: What do you think is a-- You're of the Twelver Shia faith.[16]

Elahi: Yes.

Q: So how would you describe the interactions of Twelver Shia here with the other Muslim sects? And also with other Twelver Shia elsewhere in the world? How do you see those things playing out? How do they develop? How do they inform what you do?

Elahi: Well you know, in the Dearborn area, we have a huge Shia community. 00:49:00There are some centers that there is a competition, of course, of doing more work, and being more successful, you know, internally. But my focus and House of Wisdom instead of local competitions and local things, I am more focused on interfaith and outreach. I am very much a person of engagement with other communities. I know it is important to be in contact with other Shias in some instance we are. There are people who come from other communities, they visit us at the House of Wisdom, and if I go any other any other communities, I visit them as well. So we have connections internally. But then the interaction with 00:50:00the Sunnis, for example Shia and Sunni. I am very much involved in Shia-Sunni work, not too many Imams are. A few of us spending time, because this kind of thing, it takes time and takes energy. And not everybody is ready for it.

Q: What would you say-- Who would be your, on the Sunnis in the area or Sunnis in Iran, who are the most approachable, the most responsive to your outreach? What do you think makes that more possible with some Sunni groups versus other Sunni groups?

Elahi: Well you know if they are like a Takfiri[17] and they are a Wahhabi, obviously they are not interested to talk because they know my position that very much anti-Wahhabi and Takfiri and extremism and radicalization, terrorism. They know my position, I am always talking against 00:51:00them and the Saudi's policy, I am very much against what happened on 9/11, Saudi's involvement, fifteen of those nineteen hijackers were from Saudi Arabia. So there are some Sunni sheikhs, they know my position so they are not interested. At the same time I am part of the Imam's council, we have the Imam's council that majority of them are Sunnis and they are coming from different background, American Imams, African-American Sunni Imams, and some from Middle East, from Egypt, from Lebanon, from Syria, from Iraq. So, more and less, I am probably one of the unique Imams of communicating with all of this, but still despite of me going to the meetings, there are some of them they are sensitive, some of them who are not people of dialogue. They are not even coming to those Sunni gatherings, because they are extremists, they don't show any interest for 00:52:00any dialogue and engagement. But more and less sometimes the communications are getting rocky and tough, but since I believe in the idea of dialogue, after again I resume the connection and I communicate with them like nothing happened and continue the work.

Q: I see, I see. You're persistent.

Elahi: Yeah, I'm persistent, because really I believe that if there is no dialogue, then it's destruction. I mean if you disagree, that doesn't mean to destroy one another. It's just to have dialogue and solve the problems.

Q: How do you-- So people are aware of that you are [inaudible] the immigration process, that you're from Iran. But in, sort of, daily life, especially since there is a large Arab-American community here, do you find yourself having to 00:53:00clarify the distinction between your ethnic origins as an Iranian to other ethnic groups who are from the Middle East but not necessarily from Iran and don't know much about Iran? How do you explain the Iranian part of yourself to other folks? And related to that, in Iran, how do you explain what it's like to be living in Michigan, are people curious about your life here? Do they ask you? How do you explain your life here? What it would be like, for instance.

Elahi: You know, in the beginning it was issue first few years that I am Iranian, Arab and Ajam,[18] Arab and Persian. But at least now nobody talks about it that much. It's now settled, I mean it still is there, but it's not that like the biggest issue. It's not the biggest issue that everybody talks about that. But in the sense of Iran sometimes my interviews 00:54:00with the Voice of America, or like BBC Persian section, or the program of Chamadan [Suitcase] they had conversation with me about my life, two three times Chamadan aired that, sometimes Radio Farda [Tomorrow's Radio] talks to me about different issues. And these kind of things they are aired in Iran and some people they hear, my friends, they hear that and they tell me, they send me messages that they heard me on WhatsApp or Telegram or telephone that, "Yes we heard you it was nice this, this, this." But, you know, it's been like twenty-five twenty-six years and I don't know of the new generations in Iran. I mean I know some of those people on the top that they were there from the beginning but so many generations, like four, five generations, the last two, 00:55:00three decades developed in Iran that I don't them. But still some people know me there.

Q: What would you say is the biggest differences you know when go back to Iran, the biggest changes that you notice from when you were there most recently or going as you think back? Besides, obviously, there's the revolution and all that, do you feel that Iran's always the same when you go back or that Iran is changing when you go back?

Elahi: You know, it's hard to say. Still the same challenges that people they had. Tehran is still the crazy traffic that, you know, is going there. I think that the time, I remember when President Khatami was President of Iran, because of his courtesy, his character, and his like politeness, his peacefulness, his 00:56:00personality, I could see that on the streets of Tehran, I could see people are more mo'adab [Respectful] and there is more respect in Iran, and there is more courtesy in Iran. Then Ahmadinejad came, I think he changed the culture. People got crazy too. I mean when I went there later on I could see looks like people are different than this time than the time they used to be that I used to go there.

Q: In the sense of how were they--

Elahi: In the sense of civility, I mean the sense of civility on the streets. I thought that looks like the leadership and people on the top, they influence people's character and they actually moral and social characteristics and 00:57:00courtesy situations.

Q: So as you sort of go through your day, if you were to go to the bazaar it would be a different experience because people are coarser do you mean in terms of-- I'm trying to get a sense of how you mean lack of civility, where would you experience lack of civility?

Elahi: You know I-- As I said, there are things that are still the same, like people's challenges and all of this. But then you see that in general like much more awareness now and much more openness, people talk openly now. Nobody is scared to speak now at this time. And people are aware of everything. Everybody now has cellphone and everybody use Telegram and WhatsApp, access to news, social network, or media in general that people have. So this situation is 00:58:00totally different from decades ago that people they didn't have access to this networks. So things are totally different but obviously now more population, more challenges, economic situation is more pressure obviously on so many people. So you can see this difference.

Q: Do events in Iran have an impact on your life in the states or in Michigan in a direct way or is it sort of not so much?

Elahi: Not so much, I think, we don't have any working relationship between what 00:59:00I'm doing here and in Iran. We don't have-- We are not hired or fired by the Iranians, so we are here totally independent from Iran in our work in our life in our activities. Everything is local here. So for that reason, I think that yeah, some of those who know the situation they may show more respect for what we do because we are not in need of anybody over there. Or they are not supporting us financially and we never asked for financial support either. For that reason, as a matter of fact, if we know that there are poor people here or there, we are helping. I mean, as a personal basis, family need or somebody is poor and we are able to help. But when it comes to the government, no, except if there is a conference that is related [inaudible, video skips ahead] to speak in 01:00:00some international conferences in Tehran. That's it.

Q: Not every Iranian-American I encounter is particularly religious. Some-- [pauses] It terms of going to mosque and keeping up with that part, what is your sense of the religiosity of Iranian-Americans, at least in this area, or just in generally, do you have a sense of that?

Elahi: Yeah, it's sad. I mean it's sad that compared to other communities, compared to Arab communities other Muslims and other nationalities, even compared to the Pakistanis and Indians and, you know, other[s] from Asia, yeah, you are right that we don't see the presence of Iranian community in religious 01:01:00centers compared to other Muslims. That is true. But, of course, still in Michigan there are Iranians that they still participate whether in the House of Wisdom or whether they have their own activities in any places they choose. You know sometimes they come to House of Wisdom. Even Iranian religious groups they are different orientations here. Some of them more familiar with the Islamic House of Wisdom, they come to our center and they have their own program in Farsi, they have their own speakers, they choose their time and they choose their subject and they just come and use House of Wisdom. Sometimes, if it is like very special [occasion] like Eid al-Fitr, for example, some of them come join our prayer and they pray with other people. Some of the Iranians are 01:02:00students that recent students that they are more religious, they have their own [groups]. Whether they get together in a university, or somewhere in Ann Arbor, different places that they may meet. There are religious groups among Iranians, both the students and, you know, those who established from academic or business area. Some of them come to House of Wisdom, some of them go to other centers in Michigan, in Dearborn. But they are minority compared to a huge number of Iranians that they are more secular and they may not go to House of Wisdom or any other place. Whether the political situation or Iran or agreement and disagreement, that has some influence on them, I don't know, maybe, you know, maybe.

Q: Do you have opportunities for interaction with more secular Iranians through other Iranians, through other activities, like a Nowruz[19] celebration or something like that? Or is it really separate?

Elahi: Yeah, with some of them. Any Iranians that I see, we have a nice, they come if they are marriage or they need a paper for the embassy or to register their marriage or there is a divorce case, they need to come to the mosque so we are actually probably the only center that deals with these issues. In the beginning, when I came here, more Iranian doctors were involved and we used to have a meeting for them. Very beginning, because still they were in the atmosphere of revolution, it was more spiritual. But years later, that kind of 01:04:00went down and the enthusiasm that was in the beginning for those kind of Iranian. But one other reason because they got older. The generation that they used to come and were active and they were doctors and they were in their fifties, for example, and sixties, now after twenty-five, now they are eighty years old, some of them moved to California, some of them still here. But age stopped them from coming to the mosque. But then the new generation, especially the new students [in] recent years they came from Iran, they are still showing religious commitment. And, more and less, they come. MICA for example is one of 01:05:00them that in Michigan Iranian Muslim Community they come to house of wisdom almost on every month or every two month [basis], they chose and occasion and they participate. But every other Iranian the secular Iranians, if they-- they know my position, we are not extremist in any way, so they feel comfortable to talk. And I like to see Iranians, they are successful or anything we can do for them to help. In the beginning, they-- because we were going through some challenges we need to buy a center, so much expenses. I don't know if that discouraged some of them. Because some of them they thought that if they want to come to the masjed [Mosque] that may create some sort of financial commitment for them. And some of them were not ready really now to even give money for this 01:06:00kind of project. Maybe that was one of the factors that I was not attractive for some of them.

Q: Does your congregation, if I can use that term, folks who regularly attended, does that have a, how would you describe them as a group? Are they mostly folks who were born and raised here, are they mostly folks who have come here as part of immigrant families that are acculturating here or had in a sense no connection to Islam or the middle east and just gravitated? How would you describe the folks you mostly work with?

Elahi: You know, Islam in Detroit has a long history, more than a hundred years now. From the first immigrants that came from Lebanon, from Syria, more than a hundred years ago. So Islam has a history and roots in this country. And 01:07:00especially the Lebanese Shia that they share the same culture and history with the Shia in Iran. So they welcomed the Islamic House of Wisdom because of our openness and being available to serve everyone to communicate with everyone and make it easy for them. That, you know, really the mercy of Islam that Islam is really message of love, a message of peace, message of mercy, message of friendship and love and rationality. So that has been the motive of House of Wisdom, and for that reason even those people who may not come to our religious services, but they have a higher respect for our organization and they admire 01:08:00our services, especially our interfaith. We are in a very good term with the community. One of the things that they know that we are really sincere about what we do. And we are not practicing hypocrisy that I say something like in private and then publicly I say something else. Whatever I say like whether it is a political or social or community, whatever I say at like in casual meetings, that is my position also in public. That really is liked by so many people.

Q: I really should wrap up, two more questions and I'll...

Elahi: No, no problem.

Q: One question I've always been curious about, is How does the issue of 01:09:00marji'yat[20] play out, either with House of Wisdom or just generally what's your experience on that? Because on the one hand there's a sense that it matters and people have a marja' in mind. How does that really work with what you do or what your followers do?

Elahi: This is a very serious issue. For so many people they follow one marja' and that manifests itself in Eid al-Firt for example, whether it is today or tomorrow, you know, that determination. For House of Wisdom, we make it clear for everyone that we respect everybody. We are not with any particular marja'. 01:10:00To say that this marja' or that marja'. It is up to you, you can follow any marja' and respect everybody. But some of them they gave representation to House of Wisdom, like Ayatollah Sistani, or when marhum [Deceased] Khoei was there he was alive, he gave us, or from Lebanon Sayyed Fadlullah, he supported us. Marjas [21] in Qom, Ayatollah Makarem Shirazi, they are people from the Marjas who are not there anymore, like Ayatollah Marashi Najafi, Ayatollah Golpayegani, when they were alive, at that time twenty-five years ago, they gave me a letter of recommendation that they support what we are doing. But the point is that we have support for everybody. You want to follow Ayatollah Seyyed Sistani, or Sayyed Khamenei, Sheikh Makraram Shirazi, or Vaheed, or 01:11:00whoever. Ayatollah Vahid Khorasani. They are different marjas different people, we leave it for them, or Ayatollah Hakim. We are not really particular that this marja' or this marja', we don't have any propaganda for any particular person.

Q: Okay--[Inaudible].

Elahi: Right we are ok, we are open to everybody.

Q: I guess my sort of final question is, if you don't mind, to what extent does Michigan or the US feel like home to you, and if it does when did that feeling come to you? If not, what would make it feel more like home? Or when you think of home, how do you usually think of that?

Elahi: We will like and say that we love this land. I mean it's a beautiful, it's a blessing, it's a land of opportunities, lots of dreams and lots of good stuff. A lot of good people, people of consciousness, people of love, of course 01:12:00there are some ignorant, they are everywhere, in every community, country there are ignorant people. And America is not an exception, there are racists here, there are people who hate us for no reason, they are have all this nasty comments about Islam and Muslims and they are part of Islamophobia. That bothers obviously, but still we consider also ourselves as Americans like everybody else, we believe this is a land of diversity, and diversity is a secret of success in this country. And we need to protect this diversity and go with the governance of law, the rule of law. And constitution and we believe really if there is something, if you read the Declaration of Independence, all men are created equal. And talking about justice and unity and rejection of monarchy, 01:13:00and corruption ,and kingdom, and injustice, oppression, and colonization, they are in relation independence. We really take it from there that there are dreams and we need to return to that mottos, like "One Nation Under God," "Liberty and Justice for All" "Right of Life and Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness." We trust God. I mean all this spiritual values, and all of these things, even if it is hard, we have to make it happen. It is a struggle, but we cannot give up on these things and we have to stand against this Islamophobia that's going on. We say, "We are from Michigan, we are Americans, we are citizens of this country 01:14:00and everybody was immigrant, this country was born two hundred and forty-one years ago" and we just had Fourth of July. Life's a struggle, life is meant to be a struggle. Life [is] meant to be a test and trial and tribulations. It is natural for us, even if you are in Iran you have test and trials, and in America. It is opportunity, it is challenge, but we consider ourselves, Iranians, Americans, Muslims. And ready to continue these challenges.

Q: It's-- I guess in a more basic sense - My family and I came over here from Illinois, so-- And we'd been living in the Chicago area a long time before my wife and I came over here for when I got my job. It was a number of years before when I was saying I was going home, I meant Illinois, where I mean going home I 01:15:00meant here. At a certain point that transition happened. Where one place was a place I visited and one place was where I lived. And that was where I would automatically think of it before I really fleshed it out. And so that was more of a sense of what I was wondering about in terms of for you, if that is how either Michigan or some other part of the world feels like a place you visit or a place you are?

Elahi: Well you know I still like to visit Iran, I love see to Isfahan and my mom still lives in Isfahan, my sister is still in Tehran. I love to go to, especially to Mashhad and Isfahan. Tehran, I like to go and see some friends, but still really is tough because of traffic and if you don't have enough time. So I love to visit Iran and Shiraz, Isfahan, other places, see family, see friends. But really, then the point is that when you go all over, and you come 01:16:00back you appreciate what you have here. You appreciate that you live here and you have opportunities here. I mean [it is] still good to visit all these places, but for me. There are different people, there are different people, maybe in Iran they may like to come and visit here but they don't want to live here. They love to live where they are there are different opportunities for different people. For me really, Michigan is a home and America is like my country, too. But I still have love and passion for Iran and still love to have more time to go and visit Iran and, you know, the food, the friends, fun. Everything is still refreshing, and you love it. You love to go and spend some 01:17:00time over there but then your life is here.

Q: Even when my dad goes to Tehran and Toronto or visits a more Iranian place in America, California, he doesn't ever talk about wanting to be in those places. I was wondering if you ever think about if you were in place with more Iranians where you were, would be that something of interest or you rather go through the original source and visit Iran versus visit California in terms of feeling like you're connected to Iran.

Elahi: Since we are busy here, we don't travel too much now. So really, that doesn't come to my mind too much, of thinking about where to go. Sometimes I think that if I was in Washington [D.C.], probably Washington can satisfy my desires, my social, political desires more. Because with the kinds of activities 01:18:00and interfaith and outreach that I have here, if I had this much work, move it to a place like Washington, or New York, I can get much, much more out of it. But here in Michigan, you can compare Iran, if you are in Tehran, or you are in Najaf Abad for example, right? It's a totally different thing [laughs], in Tehran you have one of the reasons relative success was I was in Tehran! When you are in Tehran you see the key people and the key positions there, right? The same thing in United States. I think that I could have this interaction, with the President, the White House, like, you know, kind of interaction I have here with interfaith. If you move the same thing to Washington, then you have it more 01:19:00international, national and international. And that's something I like to have involved with bigger places and have more impact, more influence. Learning more, teaching more. Have mutual impacts in life, in general. But then we are kind of established here. Our mosque is here, community is here, and it's very hard. I mean I cannot have the facility I can serve people, I don't have this in Washington, for example, I don't have this in California. And what I have here is a result of twenty-five years, twenty-six years of work. At my age, to start all over fresh, it's very hard. So I came here in the right time and chose a 01:20:00right place and a right time. And with the right situation. But at this time, it is much harder to move here and there. But you know, for visitation go with the family, and sometimes I do. You go to D.C. if there is an occasion, if there is an occasion you go to Washington. If there is work related, like a conference kind of thing. We don't have that much time to just make it for the sake of making it for sake of just for fun, and just for vacation. But we try to mix it, vacation with work. Like last time we went to Washington D.C. there was a demonstration in front of the Saudi embassy. That was opposition to what the Saudis did in destruction of shrines in Baghi in Madina. About three thousand 01:21:00people, I spoke there and then we moved from Saudi Embassy marched to the White House, that was worth it. So I took the family, we got a hotel, and a couple of days, so it was nice. We felt that we are working but at the same time, we have fun. We have family time.

Q: Thank you so much.

Elahi: Pleasure, pleasure, Dr. Cameron.

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